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Chapter seven: BSL Provided in a different way

7.1 When personal interaction cannot proceed effectively and directly in BSL and where the adaptations of the Deaf person to use English are unworkable, then there seemed to be two alternatives - provision of an intermediary or provision of alternative media with BSL.

Using signing intermediaries - Interpreters

7.2 Because machines are not well liked, and personal direct interaction is a problem, it would seem that the obvious solution should be the provision of a trained intermediary. Most Deaf people are now familiar with the work of an interpreter, even though some among the older population may not fully understand what the interpreter actually does. A common starting experience of the use of interpreters is in job interviews. In the past, such interviews were not always carried out in the same way as today and the intermediary was not really an interpreter.

"I got my job from the Missioner - the old fashioned system to help Deaf people. The missioner was really good and helped me a lot. I prefer this system than the social services one. The missioner always fought with the hearing people to give jobs to the Deaf. When I was at my job interview, the missioner knew me very well and I didn't have to explain. It was great. But now interpreters - it is too much for me and interpreters have to make me say something but I don't know what to say." C64

7.3 The existence of advocates for Deaf people - Missioners and Social Workers - was a working system for at least a hundred years. The employer interviewed the Missioner (not the Deaf person who was an onlooker) and the job was provided by proxy. This system has fallen into disrepute as it takes away the independence of the Deaf person but for some Deaf people this means being 'manipulated' by the interpreter to "say something when they don't know what to say". This is indicative of lack of understanding of the questions which interpreters are relaying or lack of understanding of the nature of the exchange which needs to take place. One of the issues for the Deaf community has been to develop the most effective way to use interpreters and to educate the members of the community in the use of interpreting services.

7.4 The provision of non-qualified 'interpreters' (when registered interpreters are not available) can also fail to meet requirements - because they are not considered to be good enough.

"When I came to the office, the lady said there was an interpreter. I was really shocked - it was my nephew - because he knows signs and he works in the shop. But his signing skill was terrible. It was really wrong." E77

"I got my job from my teacher. It was last minute and impossible to arrange an interpreter. My teacher came with me to my job interview." B44

7.5 One of the disadvantages of using someone untrained and unqualified as the intermediary is that there are no grounds for complaint. Usually the hearing service provider is unaware of the distinction between qualified and unqualified (if the Deaf person brings the intermediary) and will assume that the interview is proceeding normally. The performance of the intermediary is then likely to reflect badly on the Deaf person.

7.6 Some people had tried to cope without an interpreter at first, but when bringing an interpreter, found that there were new problems.

"Before I used pen and paper to write at job interviews but at the end I didn't get the job. … I used an interpreter and thought this was OK but they looked at the interpreter all of the time. I feel they were not watching me." E76

7.7 While the Deaf community was concerned in the past about how to use interpreters, there was and still is, no training or information programme for hearing people on how to use interpreters. As a result, there are often interactions with the interpreter and not with the Deaf person.

7.8 Some Deaf people were happy with the interpreting support provided.

"I always have interpreter at interview. I feel happy with the interpreter - although it would be good if the panel could sign." A7.

"I need an interpreter. I feel it is the way to get full information. If you write notes there is not enough information for the interviewer or interviewee." D70

7.9 However, one theme which was apparent, was the level of performance of the intermediary and the need to have the highest level of skill.

"I had an interview for a college place. The interpreter did not understand my signing. I wasn't able to complain. I was disappointed as I got a different level of entry for study because of the poor level of skills of the interpreter. Later I discovered the person was a CSW not an interpreter." A6

(note: CSW = communication support worker, a person who translates and supports, and may instruct a Deaf person - usually in Education settings; not trained to interpreter level)

"Often an interpreter is provided but not to my satisfaction due to their poor skill levels. I was unable to give my presentation. I do not trust the interpreter's voice over." A13

7.10 This raises the issue about who arranges the interpreter and what steps they take to ensure that the interpreter is registered and qualified. Deaf people may not know the interpreter at a meeting and there are no distinguishing features or badges to show that an interpreter is qualified. It may be difficult for Deaf people to question the situation at the time, and they may find themselves in a position of not understanding or not being understood. It is almost impossible at that point to tell the hearing panel in an interview that the choice of interpreter is not good enough.

7.11 Nevertheless, there is a general view that interpreters are a good solution in the job interview situation. Two major factors remain: the shortage of suitably trained interpreters and the cost of hiring them.

"Councils cannot afford to pay for interpreters - they are expensive." D170

"My work cannot afford to have an interpreter" C154

7.12 Cost might be a less sensitive issue if there were some external funds or if the employer paid. However, often employers were unsympathetic.

"I asked for an interpreter at work and the boss said 'you pay for it'. The boss just didn't want to get involved. When the interpreter was booked, the boss ignored her - he just did not want to get involved." C163

"At work after a difficult meeting with a supervisors (writing notes etc), I had to book an interpreter. I paid for it out of my own pocket. They said that work could not pay for it." C164

"Maybe employers locate among their own staff, people who can sign, rather than pay interpreters because interpreters' fees are very expensive. Employers may not be able to afford it." B143

7.13 In theory, many of the problems of finding interpreters and certainly, paying for them can be solved by the Access to Work programme. However, employers often do not know about this and even Deaf people are unclear.

"Before I could not get an interpreter for work meetings and I was always the last to know about information on things that happened at work. When I first met the researcher on this project, she told me about Access to Work. I went back to work and spoke to my boss about it. Later when we were having a meeting, I asked if an interpreter was coming, she said she did not have time to arrange one, but there was one member of staff who could sign for me. But his signing was really basic not fluent. So I am still the last to hear about things." B142

"There is one member of staff who can sign, so I rely on him for the meeting. But what happens if that person cannot attend? I told them about Access to Work and that they could have funds for interpreters. I gave them the phone number to call. Since then I have asked them what happened - they said they could not get through. I don't understand." B144

7.14 It seems there are several layers of problem here - the lack of interpreters, the lack of training and information about the role of interpreters but also confusion or lack of knowledge as to how the Access to Work Programme works and who is responsible. The reality is, of course, that if all Deaf people were assessed within the Access to Work Programme, there would be nowhere near enough interpreters to go around. However the group discussions highlighted the lack of cooperation among employers in regard to their Deaf staff.

7.15 Descriptions of poor performance from the 'interpreter' are very common among Deaf people. There can be different reasons for this. Most likely is the lack of fully qualified and fully trained interpreters. Even where an interpreter is fully trained, the assignment may be given without preparatory materials and in a technical situation in a job interview, the interpreter may simply not be prepared effectively for the task. More commonly, a trainee interpreter is the only one available and despite the fact that the hearing panel are not aware of the lack of transfer of information, the quality of the interaction is poor. It is the Deaf person's incomplete answers which are heard by the hearing panel. Public interviews are more likely to have interpreters booked but at in-house interviews, Deaf people may be expected to get by with someone who cannot sign very well and who has had no training as an interpreter.

Shortage of Interpreters

7.16 When Deaf people talk about interpreters, the most common theme is the difficulty in finding an interpreter.

"It is impossible to book interpreters at the last minute. Lots of Deaf people give up." B148

"There are not enough interpreters. If we have more interpreters, then we could make the request." B144

7.17 The demand for interpreters is very great coupled with special plea for more male interpreters (the lack of career structure contributes to this shortage) and more specialists in situations of special need.

"There are not enough interpreters in Edinburgh - we are still fighting at the moment for this. The Government should provide more interpreting jobs. … Interpreters need to be available in emergencies. Like when a Deaf person is rushed to hospital." B150

"Interpreters need to be specialised in working in hospital, with police etc so they would know how to sign in an appropriate way and deal with these areas sensitively." A112

"Any services that are linked to the Government (firemen, ambulance, post office, hospital, dentist etc) should learn how to sign or have an interpreter there." B140

7.18 This shortage leads to a range of problems which could be life threatening; the use of friends may just make matters worse.

"Once I had a kidney problem. I called the neighbour who got my brother and then rang for an ambulance. The doctor was good and rang for an interpreter but social services was closed and refused to offer interpreting service. My brother can't sign - only gesture so communication was almost nil. Terrible." C59

"We really need interpreters but interpreters are always fully booked. That is why I ask my hearing friends to help me but the interpreter is better because I get full information. But it is really difficult to book interpreters." B38

7.19 Deaf people consistently repeat what is known for some time, there are not enough people who know sign language and there are not enough interpreters.

Interpreters and Privacy

7.20 A second general theme which comes up in Deaf people's discussion is the view that interpreters intrude on privacy. This is a special problem for people who are frequent users of interpreters in the work setting.

"I refuse to use an interpreter as I use them for my work and I know them all. So I do not want them to know my personal situation. I don't trust them to be confidential." A10

7.21 Deaf people with experience of interpreters may often do without in situations which they believe to be sensitive or personal - because they have to meet this same person in a work setting at a later date. This may lead to the attempt to get by without an interpreter.

7.22 This issue of confidentiality and the extent of knowledge about the person which the interpreter needs in order to work effectively, came up may times in different settings. It is not so much the inability of the interpreter to keep secrets but the feeling that other people should not know about the Deaf person to this extent - especially when the Deaf person sees that interpreter in work settings at a later date.

7.23 Interpreters are much in demand to deal with the immediate face to face transaction, but there are many other areas of information access which might have different BSL solutions.

Information provided in BSL on television

7.24 This topic area is somewhat difficult as there is little sign language on television in Scotland at the present time. All programmes with signing come from England and there were frequent comments that the signing was not Scottish. A recurrent theme has been the need to have Deaf signing and not to have hearing people (ie interpreters) producing the news or other information. Some people claim to use subtitles as well as the signing and others say they prefer subtitles to the hearing interpreter signing.

"..prefer Deaf use of signing as more correct and more interactive." A11

"Yes watch but I do not always understand if there are difficult long words. I prefer signing. I prefer Deaf signing as I am Deaf myself and it would be the same language." C62

"I prefer to have subtitles with signing as some signs are different and I can check. I prefer Deaf signers as I can understand better." A7

7.25 The responses were uniform. Deaf people watched television with subtitles and relied on them to support their viewing. They watched signed programmes although clearly preferred Deaf people signing to hearing people - which would be natural for other minority groups as well, for example Gaelic speakers might prefer native speakers rather than those who learned as adults in their 20s. There was a general dislike of in-vision signing which was distracting and unhelpful.

BSL information on video

7.26 A surprisingly large proportion had not seen signed videotapes. But those who had, usually, but not always, preferred it to leaflets.

"I prefer signed video over leaflet as it is in English and difficult to understand. I think I only saw one signed video on health." C62

"I always received the BDA Annual Review each year but I nearly couldn't believe it when I received the CD- ROM. It was wonderful. I could absorb all the information and really understand what the annual review was all about." A4

"Access to Scottish Executive videotape - It was OK but too boring. Only one presenter. Deaf don't watch that. They prefer a variety of presenters. Overall signed videos are better." B33

7.27 Some people had good ideas on how to develop video information services.

"I received the Open I signed videos. They were really good. With clear information. There were videos about benefits, family credit tax and so on. I watched the news about these issues and did not understand. The videos helped a lot. The government should create signed videos for Deaf people eg fine for not paying car tax on time and fine for not voting. Many Deaf people do not know about new information." B41

7.28 It is obvious that this is a source of information which could be made available to Deaf people - provided there were Deaf signers and the video materials were kept up to date.

"Government always provides materials for blind people and in foreign languages. What about Deaf people. Deaf people are always the last priority. If Government disseminates new information on say Council Tax, they should give videos/ CDs to Deaf people at the same time." B141

"I feel that the information in BSL on video about public services, benefits etc is out of date. Why doesn't the Scottish Executive employ a Deaf person to learn and to deal with benefits and to update the information? They could learn benefits and explain to Deaf people when they meet." A112

7.29 There was a strong sense of marginalisation in this regard. Deaf people perceived that public services were often made accessible to other minorities - notably ethnic minorities and blind people. Since there had been some materials provided in BSL, most Deaf people could not see why all materials from public services should not be provided in BSL. Some people described examples.

"I went to B&Q and they have a TV explaining in BSL about DIY. It is very useful as it also explained the safety information. I went away with full knowledge of that topic. There should be the same for health information, politics, pension and so on." C160

"On the plane, the screen has an in-vision signer but it was too small. I couldn't follow." C164

7.30 The production of the videos had to be appropriate to the setting and the size of the signing image was of considerable importance. Without BSL content, Deaf people felt separate and ignored in information distribution. There was a considerable strength of feeling that BSL could be provided if public authorities wished it. There was no doubt that this would be a useful means of communication.

Remote video information in BSL - Internet and Mobile

7.31 Within the group sessions, there were demonstrations of computer displayed BSL and video played on handsets or PDAs. Technically it is possible nowadays to transmit BSL messages to modern mobile phones, handheld computers wirelessly and to desktop computers linked to the Internet. These demonstrations showed what BSL video information might be like in future. The possibilities were taken on by some; in other cases, they would need a more concrete demonstration with real time access in order to see how it was relevant. There was agreement that this form of information content was desirable although some people raised the question of cost.

"Good idea with video information. I want to know if there will be a government grant to buy this equipment." D170

7.32 It has been a very sensitive issue among Deaf people that they believe that they have to pay more for services than do hearing people. New services involving new equipment may be viewed sceptically unless the cost benefits are clearly set out. Where a primary function is to provide information which hearing people receive as a right, then the Deaf participants felt that the authorities should make some contribution to cost. Some people picked up from the PDA application, the notion of portability, linking it to mobile phones and text messages. This was an advantage as it gave some idea of the speed of service.

"I think getting the information from the computer would build more confidence for Deaf people, especially if the signers were Deaf themselves." B150

7.33 This is an area to be developed as the examples shown were only a brief glimpse of how BSL information might be available in the future. The nature of the delivery of BSL information is crucial to the access which Deaf people might have.

7.34 Other people returned to the basic need for BSL information materials.

"We need more BSL information on the Internet like Deafstation." A129

"Now we look for any web site that has BSL information, since Deaf people are interested in that website…It is more important to have BSL on the website." A109

7.35 It was relatively clear that Deaf people considered that where BSL communication was not available directly, they should have access to support material in BSL on video, CD and on the Internet.

Adding signing and subtitles to existing materials

7.36 Television programmes and video adaptations for Deaf people may add layers of complexity by placing sign or text over the existing visual message. This creates interesting issues which are currently unresolved as to how to convey information with mixtures of signing, visual action, speech and text. Deaf people have a wide range of abilities in both BSL and in English and finding a balance in a single media is bound to be difficult.

7.37 There was a rejection of in-vision signing as it was perceived to make the message too complex. However, there was good deal more in the responses than this. Firstly, it is not obvious on how much experience the comments are based. There is limited signing on television in Scotland and the most obvious experience is of Sign Zone, late at night and staffed by hearing interpreters (mainly). Rejection seemed to arise from the fact that the BSL is hearing and English.

7.38 There was also a question about the nature of the picture - in the past an 'egg' insert was used for the interpreter and this occupied a small area of the screen. More recently the Interpreter is 'indented' and made more prominent with a reduced video picture 'behind' the interpreter. The size of this image is probably adequate whereas the egg was not.

7.39 However, the concerns expressed about the dual tasks of trying to watch the message in sign and at the same time, to follow the action on screen are valid. Subtitles do not intrude in the same way. Below, there are two dialogues from the focus groups which illustrate these points.

"I prefer subtitles only, not in-vision interpreter. The signing is too small and they use different signs." D170

"But if the Deaf person cannot read, open in-vision interpreter would be better. What is the point in having subtitles if you can't read." D169

"It is difficult to watch the signer. Often they have no facial expression and it is difficult to understand." E175

"I saw one this morning on ITV2. They had a signer but no subtitles. I could not understand so I had to look around the screen." E180

"The signer is often too small and too difficult to see. I am lucky to have a wide screen TV and that helps to bring the signer into the picture more." E175

" I object to having a hearing signer on the news. I prefer a Deaf signer because I feel I can relate to and understand them better." E180

7.40 However, the following dialogue confirms the view mentioned earlier that Deaf people should be the presenters in sign language - in in-vision signing.

"I feel if the signers were Scottish it would make a big difference. We had an interpreter and also a Deaf signer on the news. I prefer the Deaf signer as they were 10 times better." A109

"I prefer to have Deaf signers because I feel that they know how to adapt the register to match the Deaf community. I think interpreters are not good at this." A112

7.41 Although it is obvious that the format for presentation of any items on television can be open to personal preference (and that more research can be carried out on subtitles and signing), there is a consensus that presenters on all fixed media should be Deaf themselves.

Hearing people learning to sign

7.42 Although Deaf people were critical of hearing intermediaries who did not sign well and of hearing interpreters appearing on video and on television, they were very much in favour of hearing people learning to sign. Although there are many support scenarios for interaction, the best solution from the viewpoint of Deaf people was for hearing people to learn to sign. There were several simple strands here - hearing people should be taught sign language in courses; there should be an option in school as a foreign language, to learn BSL; and there should be more interpreters. In between, Deaf participants recounted terrible stories about lack of communication in public services - eg being left waiting on a platform with two young children, because she was given the wrong instructions, having problems in understanding the police, being unable to obtain service in fast food places.

"People who want a job where they will meet the public, should have to learn BSL." E176

"Bigger companies should pay staff to go on BSL courses." C160

"Nurses, police, doctors while they are taking their training should learn BSL" E180

7.43 The same points were offered as an option for children.

"All school children should learn BSL as part of their school curriculum, just like French, German etc. There are Deaf children in SCOTLAND." B151

" BSL should be taught in schools so that when they grow up and if one of them becomes a doctor and meets a Deaf person, they may remember a bit of BSL" A103

7.44 Although the intention in this section of the investigation was to show which methods other than sign language use would be effective, the discussion came back again and again to the same theme - hearing people should learn to sign. The use of public services is much easier if the service provider and the customer both use the same language. Deaf people as Scottish people, believe that services in Scotland should take this into account.

Comments on alternative means of providing BSL

7.45 While much of the daily activity of Deaf people is in the hearing community, they do not feel a part of that community. This is described in terms of lack of access to information and lack of respect for their own language and culture. The provision of interpreters was seen as a high priority but there is a clear distinction between a signing intermediary - family member or friend - and a qualified and registered interpreter. The former is likely to create difficulties of confidentiality as well as of competence.

7.46 There is considered to be a great lack of interpreters and at present, the lack of emergency interpreters where Deaf people in urgent need could obtain support, is also seen as a major problem.

7.47 There was a great deal of support for the creation of BSL videos, for Deaf signers on television and for BSL on the Internet. All of this is achievable in current technology.

7.48 Although the search in this section was for support systems to aid communication in BSL, and although there were some positive possibilities in the use of interpreters and BSL information videos, the views and discussion continually returned to the need for hearing people to adapt and to learn to sign.

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